Okay. I do not have much time. I would like to touch on the ongoing debacle relating to and the set of debacles that resulted in the killing of Shane O’Farrell in 2011. In 2019, a scoping inquiry was established instead of the full public inquiry that both Houses of the Oireachtas had unanimously called for. Considering that it is now 2022, and I assume that the witnesses will not be able to give us any sense of when that the scoping inquiry will be concluded, does the Department accept that scoping inquiries in respect of matters such as that to which I refer are not an appropriate way to provide answers? Does it also accept that the scoping inquiry in this case has become just another blockage for the family of Shane O’Farrell and for those of us who want to find out precisely how his tragic death was allowed to happen?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
It is difficult to go into any detail on this matter given that it is with the judge at the moment. My understanding is that the judge expects to wrap that up in the next little while. A scoping inquiry is standard practice before any deeper inquiry takes place because we need to set out literally what the scope of the latter will be. Obviously, the circumstances of this tragedy—–
Deputy Matt Carthy
Has any other scoping inquiry taken three years?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I would have to go back and have a look, but I do not think so.
Deputy Matt Carthy
Would Ms McPhillips consider three years to be appropriate or even acceptable?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
The Deputy will have to take into account that we had two of years of Covid, which has had an impact on many things. Obviously, everyone wants to get to the bottom of this issue. However, I do not believe that any inquiry is served by not having definition around it. That is the purpose of having a scoping exercise before one embarks on a more wide-ranging inquiry, if that is deemed appropriate.
Deputy Matt Carthy
Here is the difficulty. Shane was killed in 2011 by someone who should have been in prison. It is now 2022. We had the GSOC inquiry, which took God knows how long, and the Department refused to answer any questions when it was taking place Now we have the scoping inquiry, which has been in train for three years. I assume that if, as directed by the Houses, we are to have a further public inquiry, its deliberations will take some time . What would the Department consider to be an appropriate timeframe for the family and loved ones of Shane O’Farrell to get the truth as to how the set of incidents that led to his death were allowed to happen?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
There is no answer to that question. Obviously—–
Deputy Matt Carthy
Does Ms McPhillips think it has been going on for too long?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I would not want to speak for any grieving family. I presume that they would not want to be in this position at all. Everybody would wish that their loved one was still alive. The length of time relating to the administration of justice is always too long for the people who are suffering.
Deputy Matt Carthy
One of the debacles was that Mr. Gradzuiska, the man who killed Shane, was convicted of two different offences in 2010. Those offences were appealed, but the appeals never happened. On 15 May 2019, the then Minister for Justice signed the terms of reference, approved by the Attorney General, for a review of the District Court system, which, in addition to the error, was also supposed to examine existing risks and so on. Why was that review never advanced as the then Minister instructed?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
Chair, I am in difficulty here because the Deputy has named a person.
Deputy Matt Carthy
I have named someone who was convicted. It is a matter of record.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
There is a scoping inquiry into these matters. I do not believe I can go into the detail of the case. In terms of—–
Deputy Matt Carthy
I am asking Ms McPhillips why—–
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I can speak about the review—–
Deputy Matt Carthy
Yes, please do.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
—–but I cannot go into the detail of some of these matters. The review did not proceed as intended, but that was an accidental oversight on the part of the Department. We have explained this to the family involved. The matter is part of the scoping inquiry, and I expect that the judge will have something to say about it also. We apologised for that at the time.
Deputy Matt Carthy
In 2020, the family had, through the Freedom of Information Acts, sought information but the Courts Service report into that set of incidents was not included in the response they received. It was my understanding that the Minister and senior officials had signed off on the fact that the family would be provided with that information. Why were the family not provided with it?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
Chairman, I am in difficulty here. I want to be helpful to the Deputy and, obviously, I want to be respectful to the family in the context of their bereavement, but I cannot go into the detail because it is subject to the scoping inquiry that a judge is engaging in at the moment.
Deputy Matt Carthy
I am asking Ms McPhillips why the Department—–
Chairman
The matter is not before the courts and there are no judicial proceedings or anything like that in train.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I know, but there is a report due from a judge who was appointed by means of a statutory process.
Deputy Matt Carthy
With respect, I am asking why a document was not provided by the Department to somebody on foot of a freedom of information request. I hope Judge Haughton is dealing with more substantive issues than that. I am asking why the Department did not provide a Courts Service report into this matter to an eligible recipient under the Freedom of Information Acts when it was sought.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I can communicate with the Deputy on this in detail. There is an enormous level of detail in respect of this matter, and an enormous amount of material has been provided under freedom of information. That review was provided to the family when it came to light.
Deputy Matt Carthy
It did not come to light when the original—–
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I can write to the Deputy in relation to this, but it is an exceptionally detailed series of events and, in that context, I do not want to say anything that is incorrect to the Deputy.
Deputy Matt Carthy
It is my understanding that Ms McPhillips would be very well aware of much of the detail of this case. Does she accept that there is a need for a public inquiry into the killing of Shane O’Farrell, as mandated by both Houses of the Oireachtas?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
That is the matter the judge Is looking at. It would not be appropriate for me to express an opinion on that.
Brian Stanley
Chairman
This matter has come up before. In fairness to everybody involved, I am aware that Ms McPhillips will say that she is limited, and fair enough, but it would be helpful if she could come back to the committee with information on when the scoping inquiry is going to be completed. The inquiry seems to be have been going on for years. It would also be helpful to the Deputy if Ms McPhillips came back with that information because he is dealing with constituents on the matter. Perhaps Ms McPhillips will come back to us as soon as possible. It would be helpful because the inquiry seems to be going on forever.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips
I am happy to provide the committee with an update on that.
